Pandas Play Solitaire
Posted at 6:24 am October 24, 2005 by Suzanne HallOne of the best aspects of this blog is that I can read your comments and get feedback about what you have been thinking about and what you want to know about pandas. Recently, one of you asked if Bai Yun and Gao Gao might like to be put together more often, noting that other zoos do house their adult pandas together.
Here in San Diego, we believe that it is important that we mimic the wild, natural state of the panda's life as much as possible. This drives many aspects of our management strategy, from what we feed the bears, to the design of our dens for Bai Yun, to the determination of when weaning should occur. This is true also of how we choose to house our adult bears. Since wild pandas are solitary, encountering each other only occasionally outside of the breeding season, we believe it is important they are solitary in captivity.
This is not to say that the bears do not have exposure to one another. In the wild, bears would travel around their home ranges and regularly run across the scent of other pandas that had passed through an area ahead of them (males and females have home ranges that overlap). A female would get to know " Male X" by his scent, left behind at scent posts and fecal piles scattered throughout their mountain home. Once in a while, she would catch a glimpse of " Male X" , usually from a distance, and they would opt to avoid each other. Then, during the breeding season when she was in her peak of estrus, " Male X" would show up to breed with her, and he would be a novel, exciting addition to her social repertoire… but not entirely unfamiliar.
In captivity, Bai Yun has olfactory access to Gao Gao. They both travel through a tunnel system to get from their bedrooms to their exhibits, and their scent is in those tunnels. Interestingly, Gao Gao spends a lot of time each day investigating scent as he travels through those tunnels, and he is very aware of places where Bai Yun or Mei Sheng have scent marked. Bai Yun and Gao Gao can hear each other from time to time. However, they don't have a chance to come together face to face outside of breeding seasons.
Have you ever heard the phrase " familiarity breeds contempt" ? We have real concerns that allowing Bai Yun and Gao Gao access to each other more than we do would not mimic the wild situation enough. This would lead to the development of a sibling-type relationship in which the bears would be so used to each other as playmates that they would not actually breed when the time came. Since natural mating is preferable to artificial insemination (AI is less likely to be successful), and we can only learn about appropriate male behavior with a male who actually mates, we do not want to promote such " contempt."
Left to their native instincts, our bears have the natural drives necessary to meet our management goals. An anecdote: on Friday, Bai Yun was waiting patiently in her sunroom for her turn to move through the tunnels to her outdoor area. Gao Gao was traveling in the tunnel about five feet away. He stopped and bleated. Bai Yun stood up on her back feet, looked over the wall separating them, and barked aggressively at him repeatedly. " Hey, buddy, I have a cub to protect! Get the heck out of here!" she seemed to say. Gao Gao moved along, and Bai Yun relaxed. She felt most comfortable when she thought she was the only big bear around!
Suzanne Hall is the panda research technician for the San Diego Zoo's Office of Giant Panda Conservation.
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October 24th, 2005 at 7:04 am
San Diego Zoo's couples ( Bai Yun and Gao gao) had mated naturally, which resulted in our baby girl and our baby boy Mei Sheng.
Another pair, Tian Tian and Mei Xiang at DC Zoo and the another couple in Atlanta Zoo , who have been living together, didn't mate.
I have visited the National Zoo twice and it was great to see the couple interacting and playing together, however, in my point of view, they feel each other as siblings.
Is the San Diego Zoo's reseach a secret?
Elisa from São Paulo - Brazil
October 24th, 2005 at 7:11 am
It sounds as though Gao Gao was just trying to be friendly–I understand he is a very friendly bear–and bleating is a friendly vocalization. But Bai Yun's reaction was right on! Thank you, Suzanne, for all your great information, and for tuning in to our questions. Mimicking the wild conditions, as SDZ tries to do, is working, as no other zoo has had 3 successful births in 6 years. Congratulations! … I hope these tunnels with all the scent markings are outside tunnels…..
October 24th, 2005 at 7:25 am
Hello. Just a quick note to thank you for your updates and for the wonderful videos of the baby panda, also of the others (I loved Mei Sheng's 1st Birthday). I was one of the first people to see Hua Mei when she was shown to the public, but in some ways, this is much better for me. I feel like I have access to something truly wonderful. Keep up the wonderful work and thank you again!
October 24th, 2005 at 9:40 am
Thanks for all the 'inside' info! I'm wondering if your group will have time to update the 2005 cub picture on the panda cam page? It IS an adorable picture, but 'our' little girl has grown SO much, and looks SO different (stats for her could also use a bit of refreshing!).
Thanks again for the wonderful window into the world of pandas!
October 24th, 2005 at 9:51 am
Another bit of excellent information, thanks. I look forward to reading the blogs every day and always feel let down when there is no new info. I know you folks are busy..I watched Mei at National zoo and it seems that she is smitten by Tian Tian because she is always sitting by his pen. Please educate us more on the subject of its gentleness. Are they ever mean to any keepers???
October 24th, 2005 at 10:06 am
Thnaks for the great updates and info.
I had thought that female pandas in the wild don't usually mate with the same panda year after year. If that's so, it seems SD Zoo's technique doesn't really mirror nature. What is done at Wolong, and what is done in terms of contact at other zoos that only have one pair of adult pandas?
October 24th, 2005 at 10:12 am
PS It's been asked before, but I too would really like to know if there is any research or info on how or if pandas in the wild somehow recognize and avoid mating with their siblings/children/parents.
October 24th, 2005 at 10:47 am
Thank you for all the information that you share. It makes understanding the pandas a little bit easier. I would like to know, out of curiousity, when the baby is able to be on exhibit, will Mei Sheng get a chance to play with her? Or will Bai Yun be protective of the baby?
October 24th, 2005 at 10:48 am
Not to derail this, but does anybody know the significance of waiting 100 days before naming the babies? Reading about how solitary the Pandas tend to be, I was wondering if there is a low survival rate in the cubs, hence the reason to wait before giving them a name. I searched through some of the previous threads and didn't see any mention of this. Thanks for your time.
October 24th, 2005 at 10:54 am
Thanks again for the great info - I just love learning about these fascinating creatures. BTW - Tai Shan, the little boy panda at the DC Zoo, is walking now - can't wait for our little girl to start scooting around!!
October 24th, 2005 at 12:06 pm
I appreciated the explanation of the zoo's reasons for keeping the pandas solitary. I have been watching the panda cams at the San Diego Zoo and a couple of other zoos for a little over a year. At one of the zoos where the male and female are kept together, I watched a very rough " play" session during which the male panda dragged the smaller female around by the scruff while she cried and struggled to get away. Once the female did get away, she retreated and kept her distance. I realize that bears play a lot rougher than humans do, but I got the impression that the female wasn't having fun!
October 24th, 2005 at 12:07 pm
WOW! Thanks for the super quick response/update to the '2005 cub' profile and front page picture! You actually picked my current favorite picture of her for her personal profile (the latest exam picture where she is on her back with her feet being checked)!
You're welcome!
October 24th, 2005 at 12:56 pm
I understand the original reason for the frozen fruit or vegetable treats was to cool the pandas when the weather was hot. This has involved so that all treats are now these popsicles - why? The pandas will eat the raw fruit and vegetables as is without the ice.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:32 pm
In ancient China and even into more recent times, I believe, even human babies often were not named until the 100th day. Infant fatalities were high and not naming the baby was a way to try to 'trick' the evil spirits (bringers of disease and death) into thinking the baby didn't exist. Therefore, the evil spirits would leave the baby alone. I've read the baby panda mortality rates were high in past times, hence the practice to not name the baby until it had a better chance at surviving was pulled over into panda life as well. Would some of our Chinese friends comfirm?
October 24th, 2005 at 1:37 pm
To comment #9, the 100-day wait period goes two ways.
Firstly, the 100-day wait period is a Chinese tradition that originally applied to human babies, since back then infant mortality was common before the advent of modern medicine and technology. Second, it's another way to trick fate into leaving the baby (or baby panda, in this case) alone to grow and develop, as once 100 days pass, survival is pretty much guaranteed.
October 24th, 2005 at 2:25 pm
Thanks for the great info today. It must be great to see and hear the interactions of all the Pandas each day. Go Bai Yun, you tell Dad what's up.
October 24th, 2005 at 2:47 pm
Once again Suzanne, thank you so much for the information. First time ever I caught Gao Gao this morning. What a treat for me, I don't know why but I have never seen him before, never mind I know now what a handsome fellow he is! No wonder our babygirl is so stunning, a beautiful Mother and such a good looking Father. Thank you so much once again for keeping us up to date on everything.
Valerie Warburton - UK.
October 24th, 2005 at 4:50 pm
I was wondering at what age do the panda cubs start to play with the mother, I noticed the cub has been climbing all over mom but are these signs of play? What kind of play do cubs engage in?
October 24th, 2005 at 5:12 pm
I think Bai Yun was demanding child support from Gao Gao when she bleated at him. Just kidding!! You made our day as usual, Suzanne. Do we really have to send baby girl back? When will Mei Sheng go back to China? Can we petition the Chinese government to keep them all?
October 24th, 2005 at 5:42 pm
I don't think that's what BaiYun was saying to Gao Gao as he was passing through near her. I think she was saying " Next time it's your turn to do this!!!"
October 24th, 2005 at 5:59 pm
It is so interesting to observe those lovely pandas. They each have distinctive personalities. And the solitaire play is definitely well fit for panda moms.
October 24th, 2005 at 7:49 pm
I purchased an " Adoption Kit" for Bai Yun when I worked for The Nature Conpany in '94. Because my family calls me Aunt ChandaPanda I have a lot of interest in my " Daughter's" family! 3 GrandpandaCubs and 4 GreatGrandPandaCubs!! I'm so proud! To get to my point, I visited ZooAtlanta and had a female to female chat with Lun Lun. Please share your knowledge with the folks there! She is So Cute..and he is..well..As a good Girl Scout would say - he needs to have a??? Motivational inspiration…. he needs help! All my LOVE! Even my Mom loves the Panda Cam and notes on Hua Mei and her cubs!
October 24th, 2005 at 8:32 pm
are there any regular sized pandas, all that we hear about are giant pandas. this seems like a mundane question, but it really perturbs me that there may be giants without regular sized pandas. This would ultimatly mean that giant pandas are actually regular pandas. Therefore throwing off humans whole theory about the panda bear. This is actually a serious question so please respond to me, leah melby. thank you.
October 24th, 2005 at 11:36 pm
Thanks for the anecdote! I love hearing about what goes on behind the scenes (it's a big mystery for the most part). It would be really cool to see how the whole facility is laid out (sun rooms, outdoor areas we don't see, tunnels?), but I understand security for the animals is very important. That said, it would be really nice to see what Bai Yun is doing when she's away all day. Is she eating? Napping? Foraging?
October 25th, 2005 at 2:40 am
It was interesting to read about how wild pandas do not interact except for during breeding time. I had thought that they didn't avoid each other just that being so few that it was more a case of they didn't run into other pandas that often.
Is the reason for the solitude because of the need to eat so much and they therefore have home ranges so they can have all the bamboo in a specific area with out having to compete for it?
October 25th, 2005 at 4:37 am
thank you now i understand, you are mimicking the wild as much as possible in captivity, that makes sense. so that when the bears do have to return to wolong they are able to adapt.
October 25th, 2005 at 4:54 am
We are here watching the San Diego pandas in Atlanta, GA. USA. Thanks for all the information in the blogs and the videos of the vet exams!
Connie
October 25th, 2005 at 5:40 am
I WAS JUST WATCHING BAI YUN AND SHE SEEMS TO BE DIGGING WITH THE BAMBOO AND SHIFTING IT ALL OVER I KNOW IT MAY SEEM LIKE A DUMB QUESTION BUT WHAT IS SHE DOING? SHE KEEPS LIFING THAT BIG BAMBOO STICK???????
October 25th, 2005 at 6:52 am
Thanks for excellent update! I always think: what's with big daddy? he forget about pretty Bai Yun and cute cub? Now,I know…poor Gao Gao…but I understand that Gao Gao must be patient!
October 25th, 2005 at 7:58 am
To Leah Melby - yes there are " regular" pandas - the original panda was the red panda, discovered many years before the giant panda. The red panda is my favorite animal and the cutest animal in the world, IMHO. Because of their markings and the fact that both are bamboo eaters, it was once thought that the two pandas were related. Now the theory is that while they may have had a common ancestor way back in the evolutionary chain, they are pretty much unrelated species. The Knoxville, TN zoo has the most successful captive breeding program for red pandas in North America. I visited there just to see the red pandas. Look up red pandas online and you will see what I mean about how cute they are. Probably San Diego has red pandas too.
Sharon, Fort Worth, TX
Editor's note: The San Diego Zoo's red pandas can be found in the http://www.sandiegozoo.org/zoo/ex_childrens_zoo.html" >Children's Zoo and on the hillside in Panda Canyon.
October 25th, 2005 at 8:24 am
Thank you, Suzanne, for this information. It made me think about the difficulty of designing living quarters for captive Pandas. Since wild adult males may fight over resources (territory or food) or females in season, it's reasonable that they be kept apart in captivity, too. And nothing is fiercer than a mother bear with a cub to protect. Male bears of other types, like grizzlies, may actually kill young cubs, so it is entirely understandable that Bai would warn Gao Gao off.
What a challenge, to design a habitat in limited space to allow each Panda to live as naturally as possible while maintaining healthy social interaction among members of the family! Then add the fact that certain spaces must be shared, like the access tunnel…it must be like running a train schedule, ensuring that two trains don't meet on the same track at the same time. THEN add that the keepers have to safely enter the habitat to clean areas, place food and enrichment items, and collect samples….you guys must have a very tight schedule for opening and closing doors!
Designing structures to meet the needs of the animals while facilitating all of their care would be a fascinating career! Are there any great zoo architects? There must be. See, now you've led me into another area of research!
Editor's note: San Diego Zoo architect Robyn Badger will be giving a http://cres.sandiegozoo.org/about/seminar_series.html" >seminar titled " Architecture in a zoo environment" on Wednesday, October 26, at noon in the meeting room at the Arnold and Mabel Beckman Center for Conservation Research at the Wild Animal Park. The seminar is free, but reservations are necessary; please call (760) 291-5475 to reserve your seat.
October 25th, 2005 at 8:42 am
To #9, 14 & 15: how babies were named in ancient China varied greatly by region and also by class (i.e., wealth and social status of the family). The " 100-day rule" was more popular in the north, whereas in southern China there were many, many different customs due to the diversity in the population. (BTW, did you know there are 56 officially recognized ethnic groups in China?) Among poor families (peasants), it was common to give the male newborn an animal-inspired name — like " Gou-er" (for " puppy" ), " Long-er" (for " little dragon" ), where " -er" is a diminutive suffix — at birth. The idea was at night, evil spirits and ghosts would descend from heavens to hunt newborns (strange legend, I know), so if a baby was named after an animal, the evil spirits would not be able to take away the soul of the newborn, and hence the baby could survive for long. (See, the Chinese were the first to recognize the inseparability of body and soul.) Then, after either 30 days or 100 days (either could be called " man3 yue4" in Mandarin), depending on region, the baby would be given a real name, and the " birth name" became an affectionate alias. Among rich families, it was uncommon to find male newborns named after an animal, since animals were considered inferior to humans, so often a newborn (usually a boy) would have a more " classic-sounding" birthname, like " Gao-er" or " Gao Gao" (meaning " climbing high" ), " Tian-er" or " Tian Tian" (could mean different things depending on the character used). Now you know why pandas are often given such names! Final note: female newborns, esp. in poor families, were often given no name at birth, as women had lower social status then men in ancient societies. It was even common for women to grow up with no official name at all. The important thing to know is, not every region or locale followed the 100-day baby-naming rule.
October 25th, 2005 at 8:49 am
More on 100-day naming: There's one more reason why some regions in old China observed the 100-day baby-naming convention. In Chinese medicine, a person's life begins at conception, so when a baby was born, he or she was already one-year-old. But the Chinese also knew pregnancy was only about 9 months long (in " fetal age," not " gestational age" ), so 100 days after birth would be the " true" 1-year-old landmark age for the baby. If the baby could survive the first 100 days after birth, it was believed he or she could survive into adulthood, and no evil spirit could take his or her soul away.
October 25th, 2005 at 9:03 am
leah melby of comment #23
I know the answer to your question. Red pandas are the " regular size pandas" ; they were given the name " panda" by the scientists much earlier than giant pandas.
October 25th, 2005 at 9:27 am
Leah (#23) - there is a 'Lesser Panda', too - also cute! Usually known as Red Pandas, they are much smaller than Giant Pandas, have beautiful rust-coloured fur and long bushy, stripy tails. They're more cat/dog-like than bear-like; in fact, I'm not really sure what makes them pandas at all….!
October 25th, 2005 at 10:04 am
How many breasts/nipples does a female panda have?
October 25th, 2005 at 10:16 am
I would like to Thank you all for posting which Panda we are looking at. I have always wondered why you could not post that. Once the camera is not on the baby all the time, it will be fun to know which Panda we are watching. Thank you mgt
October 25th, 2005 at 10:54 am
I had also read that, in some bear species, such as grizzlies, male bears will kill young cubs. Does that behavior also occur in wild giant pandas? Also, do animal behaviorists understand why male bears kill youngsters? Does it make their mothers more likely to mate with the offending male? Thanks.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:11 am
I am learning so much from you, Suzanne. At what temperature is the birthing den kept? What temperature do pandas like their " rooms" to be? Bai Yun's rooms sound heavenly.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:58 am
Mary Ann,
Males of some species (lions, bears) will occasionally kill youngsters. This is sad but from a genetic prospective it's very necessary for the male… it allows the mother to come into estrus sooner (since she will no longer be nursing) and he can breed with her, thus having more offspring of his own.
I know of no documented case in which pandas in the wild have done this. This may be due to the fact that females only come into estrus one time per year, and killing a cub wouldn't make a female come into estrus any faster if it's not the breeding season. Also, since pandas are solitary, there is no guarantee that a male that kills a cub would be the one around to mate with the female when she does come into estrus. Which is not to say a male panda isn't capable of killing a cub… he most certainly is.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:00 pm
I just spent the most engaging 15 minutes watching Bai Yun and her baby cuddle and play games. It reminded my of the gentle roughhousing and tickling that my daughter and I did when she was small. Someone asked early if mother pandas play with their babies. From what I just watched, the answer is a resounding " YES"
October 25th, 2005 at 12:18 pm
How wonderful to have panda fans who also know so much about China, etc. Thank you for sharing your information with us. I enjoy reading all the blogs and check them several times a day to see what else has been posted. There are a number of male animals who kill the young fathered by someone else, so they can have their own genes dispersed as widely as possible. In addition to polar bears, lions and, I believe tigers, do kill the other males' young. I'm not sure about the other large cats, but maybe Suzanne can tell us. Baby Girl was reaching for one of the bamboo stalks after her mom brought some in. She touched it as if to say " I wonder what that is?"
October 25th, 2005 at 3:34 pm
Maybe this has been asked before but, is there anyway we could actually hear the sound Mom and Baby make. We all can turn the sound off if we get tired of it. It would be neat to hear them actually making the sounds to each other.
October 25th, 2005 at 4:52 pm
Hi Suzanne! Thanks for all the wonderful info and flavor you pass on to those of us who would love to be in your shoes where the pandas are concerned! Several times when I've seen the cub nursing, she seemed to be upside down. (I haven't seen this recently, just finally thought of asking about it.) Is this possible? Keep up the good work!
October 25th, 2005 at 4:55 pm
Oops! I just went back to panda cam, and the cub is so big now there is no doubt that she is nursing upside down. Tho since her mom is lying down, I guess it doesn't matter which end is up.
October 25th, 2005 at 6:38 pm
I'm curious about the Pandas' breeding season. Do all female Pandas come into estrus at approximately the same time every year, or is it an individual thing, with some being fertile in summer and others in winter, etc.? And are there clues about what triggers estrus, like length of day, food abundance, the presence of a male Panda?
October 25th, 2005 at 7:51 pm
Where is our baby girl this evening? The den is very dark but I'm sure it is empty. This mother is worried when baby is out of sight………..
October 25th, 2005 at 8:10 pm
Did Bai Yun take the cub out of the den today? I was catching up with the time lapse and noticed a pretty distinct " no baby panda in sight" moment - the camera angle covered the entire floor. Is it possible?
October 25th, 2005 at 8:30 pm
The past few nights I've been watching the panda cam only to find momma and baby not even there. Where did they get too? Is she walking yet??
October 25th, 2005 at 8:30 pm
I've had cam 14 (baby den) on my screen for a couple hours tonight. Where's the little Panda? Is everything alright? I hope she didn't crawl out and get lost.
October 25th, 2005 at 8:54 pm
Answer to #43: I know what you mean about Bai Yun and cub. It would be interesting to hear Bai Yun but I have a DVD of Bai Yun and Hua Mei and Bai Yun does not talk even when she's being playful. Panda bears are not that vocal except during mating season. If you want to hear a vocal panda bear you are going to have tune into National Zoo and wait for Mei Xiang. She's been known to vocalize to Tai Shan of her concerns. Maybe one day we will hear the cub during a routine check up soon because as Mei Sheng grew, he got pretty vocal. I wish Sandiegozoo would put up some more videos of Bai Yun and some of Gao Gao, I think he's so cute!
October 25th, 2005 at 9:32 pm
in regards to #14. Infant mortality had been very high before. However this has changed significantly in China or any other country in the past century. At least for my generation or even my parents' generation, it became very rare to name a child after 100 days. However the tradition to name babies after 100 days has deep roots. In Chinese mythology, there was a deity called Yan Wang, or King Yan, if translated into English, who was King of all dead creatures. It was said he had records of the names of all living creatures. Whoever he called upon died shortly after.
Even today, Chinese people say " He had reported to King Yan" or " King Yan had called upon him" , in referring to someone who had passed away.
By not naming babies in their first 100 days, it is guaranteed that King Yan has no knowledge of them, thus he could never call upon them.
And I can see now this tradition has applied to our panda babies. The mortality of panda babies has been very high until very recently for pandas in captivity. I really hope in the wild, with the improvement of their living environment, pandas thrive and live a longer life.
October 26th, 2005 at 5:23 am
Ellen– Pandas have 4 nipples. I asked the same question to the NZ site before these blogs were available. They said there were 2 just under the armpits, and 2 lower on the abdomen.
October 26th, 2005 at 7:28 am
I HAVEN'T HAD MY PC ON FOR DAYS………..WHAT A SURPRISE TO SEE BAI YUN OUTSIDE! THESE ARE SUCH BEAUTIFUL, CLEAR SHOTS!!! SO MUCH FUN! LOVE IT!
MUCH LOVE, KT
October 26th, 2005 at 8:28 am
Thanks for showing Mei Sheng this morning. He is looking so regal and more and more like his mom.
Bai Yun took the cub out of the den at 8 p.m. last night. At 11:30 p.m., when I signed off, they had not yet returned. Bet the cub was sleepy during her weekly exam this morning.
October 26th, 2005 at 9:12 am
I can't believe that Bai Yun would take her baby out of the den at night ! What did they do outside the den ?
October 26th, 2005 at 9:36 am
Is that the sweet baby (Jiao Jiao?) on the tree?!
October 26th, 2005 at 9:46 am
I've loved hearing Tai Shan's squeals at the NZ and the low noises his mother makes. In the wild, it would be dangerous to have a noisy baby and I wonder how the moms shush the cubs.
October 26th, 2005 at 10:53 am
More of the older cub, please! He's too cute–and after all the little one sleeps so much of the time.
October 26th, 2005 at 12:42 pm
it isn't so much that " familiarity builds contempt'….as a long time dog breeder i can tell you that familiarity developes a dominance order! while the male panda seems so much bigger and stronger…re the washington zoo…. he is but mei rules the roost as well she should! her way of doing this is just not as obvious as that of tien….as for those play fights, she is never in danger and when she gets free…she throws herself back into the fray for more. vocalizing is not an indicator of stress, especially with her! however…when you try to breed two animals who have established this relatioship..and the female is ALWAYS dominant!…. you often have the situation where either the male is retiscent to mount the female… or the female is not about to let the male mount her which would give him a dominant position. this is what i feel is happening from my years of experience in washington and it will not be undone. tien will mount, but mei is not about to have that big ol' boy on her back! if they were dogs…she could be forced to comply by forcing her to stand…but they are definitely not able to be handled as such. fortunately… and i disagree with the pros and cons of AI and i have lots of experience in this area as well… AI has come a long way, and if the semen is surgically placed in the uterus, maybe even with some semen extender at the correct time, the rate of conception is much higher than 50%. it's all in knowing when and how to do it! some dog breeders especially breeder vets wouldn't do it any other way and for good health reasons. i hope this offers a different perspective.
October 26th, 2005 at 3:14 pm
I do not understand the comments from #60. Comparing dogs to Panda Bears. Sorry, am I dumb or something. Anyway, the beautiful " Princess Butterfly" is still my joy to watch everyday off and on as I do my work. Keep up the good work, panda team, and thanks for the information on Panda's. Lila from Sacramento
October 26th, 2005 at 4:25 pm
Mom was with the baby this afternoon around 5:14 when the girl decided she wanted to go out of the den, so she started walking towards the exit.. mom was close by and she pulled her back in the den.. the baby is getting more adventurous now that her mom takes her out very often. Also, I saw the results of the baby's weight.. she hasn't reached 8 lbs yet I will be very happy when she does =), that will happen very soon I know. She's been 3 weeks in the 7 lb range. One thing is for sure, she's more alert, active, intelligent and cute every day that goes by. Good work zoo staff.
October 26th, 2005 at 6:31 pm
I think what LU (#60) is getting at is that almost all animals (even humans!) tend to establish a " pecking order" if they spend time together. One creature becomes dominant under certain circumstances, and it's not always the biggest or strongest animal in the group. So if, for instance, the female Panda in Washington has established some dominance over the male because she is more aggressive than he (even if they're only playing), then she may not allow him to breed her naturally because she would have to allow him to assume a physically dominant position over her.
There are a lot of animal studies that show that females of most species prefer to breed with the most perfect and powerful males available. If Mei has spent a lot of time with Tien and believes that she can kick his cute little fuzzy butt, her need to breed may be overpowered by the feeling that she would be, in human terms, " marrying down" . If they had not spent much time together, she might have accepted him as a large, handsome, mysterious stranger and allowed him to breed her. Or maybe Tien just needs to change his aftershave. Anyway, " Dominance order" is just a more specific way of saying that for some animals, familiarity may breed contempt.
October 26th, 2005 at 9:18 pm
Thank you Suzanne and Brett (comments 32, 33) for giving such comprehensive and enlightening information on our popular pandas. These blogs are amazing as I have learned so much about pandas which can be related to life in general. As a mom I know how precious my children are to me so I can see why mommy panda can be a little bit protective of her adorable cub. As to Brett's comment on the lack of names being given to females at birth in old China.. I can see what a long way we've come. I can't imagine what life was like for these poor innocent baby girls who grew up realizing that they have no identity or even worth because their society rendered them so much less than their male counterparts.
October 27th, 2005 at 6:21 am
Suzanne, you give us so much great information, and I was just thinking……..we need a book of all the blogs!
Thanks for putting Mei Sheng on camera yesterday. I was so happy to see him sitting in his tree, eating bamboo. He is just stunning, and I do miss seeing him daily.
October 27th, 2005 at 7:08 am
I may have just been one of the few panda cam viewers who just got to experience seeing Bai Yun go into the den, and do a front flip over her cub (without landing on her) and then grab her baby in her paws and place her on her chest ! You have no idea how awesome that was to be able to see that and experience that. Now that Bai Yun spends more time out of the den, I get so excited when I do see her go in and lay down with her baby !!
Thanx again San Diego !! =)
October 27th, 2005 at 7:21 am
In response to #60, I'm not sure that comparing the behavior of pack animals like dogs to the behavior of solitary creatures like bears is appropriate.
October 27th, 2005 at 10:04 am
Bai Yun is so mello! She seems to like holding the baby and maybe that's why the cub seems so content. I enjoy watching them together, with their heads near one another. It looked like Baby Girl was trying to climb playfully on her mom yesterday. All babies, including humans, should have such a nurturing experience.
October 27th, 2005 at 10:24 am
The exam of Oct. 26th indicates that baby girl has grown 4 inches since Oct. 5th; but gained under 8 ounces in that same period of time. That's not very much. Seems like baby should be gaining more? Maybe Bai Yun is not spending enough time with her. I did notice before that she does not have very much stamina and is sleeping more and trying to walk less.
October 27th, 2005 at 11:26 am
I want to say I watch both Panda cams, SDZ and Washington. The mom in washington is no where near as mellow and does not seem to like to be as near to her baby as much as Bai Yun does. Is Bai Yun an exceptional mother or is it just the experience of raising 2 other cubs? I love watching her cuddle with the cub.
October 27th, 2005 at 12:55 pm
Many thanks to those that took the time to explain the 100 day waiting period (post 14 & 15). It certainly makes sense now.
October 27th, 2005 at 2:43 pm
I am so tired of the competition & negative comparisons between the DC & SD cubs and their mothers parenting styles. Yes, I admit I am a little concerned over baby girl's slower growth rate. I have to trust that the SD zoo staff know what they are doing after 3 cubs and that she is within the normal range. Also she does seem more precocious in her locomotion than Tai Shan, so maybe he paid for hauling those extra pounds around. As for the moms, let's remember that Mei Xiang is a first time mom and caution is a good thing. I see loving interaction between her & cub. Her den seems bigger than Bai Yun's and she likes that platform, giving cub room to crawl. Maybe Bai's closer quarters promote more interaction. What 3-time human mother will not tell you that she was super protective of her first baby, but by the time #3 came along, she was much more mellow and less strict. I have seen TV programs where the baby panda came out shrieking at birth and so startled and scared the mother that she would have nothing to do with it, leaving keepers to hand raise the cub. I'm glad that both Bai Yun & Mei Xiang have good parenting instincts, although not the same identical styles. Off my soapbox now.
October 27th, 2005 at 2:52 pm
thank you for sharing your expert knowledge with us. I also enjoy very much reading anecdotes about the daily and behind the scene life of the pandas. Can you please tell us why Bai Yun is described as mischievous? How does she interact with her keepers? I noticed that she " called" (or seemed to call) them by standing before the door when she is very hungry or when she wants a door to be opened.
October 27th, 2005 at 4:04 pm
Makes me sad to see our baby girl alone so often. When is Mom with her? Is this the " WAY" of nature? Love this Panda Cam!!!
October 27th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
I agree that this SD cub is alone a lot more often than the last one. Guess she gets the '3rd child' treatment! I tune in often and it seems she is always alone
October 27th, 2005 at 4:57 pm
SUZANNE…where does Bai Yun take the baby when they leave the den? What does she do with her? Is she " showing her around" ? Thanks!
October 27th, 2005 at 5:24 pm
Baby girl is SO active tonight. I have not seen her move around this much ever. She is really getting around, and mom keeps " putting her back in place" when she can't take it anymore. So sweet to watch.
Oh and #60—–dogs?
October 28th, 2005 at 4:58 am
I am sorry if Sharon, comment #72, thought I was being negative about the the difference between the SD and the DC mothers. I just was wondering if Bai Yun's actions are because she has raised 2 other cubs. I think they are both a treasure we are so lucky we are able to watch on a daily basis. I am sure both mothers are very good mothers and wanted to know if the experienced mothers act differently than first time mothers.
October 28th, 2005 at 6:10 am
This morning you had Bai Yun in her indoor area. She seemed to be pacing the perimeter like a tiger. I am curious as to what she was doing. At first I thought maybe she was trying to go to the bathroom but then it looked like she was moving all the bamboo around. At times she would sit by what looked like a door and seem to touch it with her nose. Or stand up and look over it. What was she doing? Is this where she can see/smell Gao Gao? Regardless of what she was doing - it was very cute to see so much movement. During my one visit to the San Diego Zoo, the pandas I saw were both sound asleep.
October 28th, 2005 at 3:41 pm
Angela,
Bai Yun was probably anticipating the efforts of her keepers to feed her and offer her access to the off-exhibit classrom area where she likes to spend her mornings. She waits in the sun room (cam 17) for the door to the tunnel to open. Unfortunately, she has to wait until both Mei Sheng and Gao Gao have been transferred to their exhibits so that she can have the tunnel left open for her to travel between the den and the classroom. She usually gets access to it about 0800. Take a look at the timelapse for this morning and you'll see Bai Yun eventually settled down in her classroom for a bamboo feast and a nap.
October 29th, 2005 at 12:16 am
thank you pamela #63 for explaining part of what i was saying perhaps clearer than i… and georgi #67… i agree with you! what suzanne was trying to suggest and i strongly agree is that the NZ has taken two solitary animals in the wild and formed a " pack" at their zoo. in this case some form of pack behavior is bound to occur. this zoo has chosen to avoid those conflicts by keeping the sexes separate, while the NZ has taken another path. i wasn't suggesting that one way was better than the other! however, if " natural" breeding is the goal, separation would seem to be best.